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<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Maybe it's slightly off-topic, but I was wondering if you already
know how and where you plan to have the discussions and make
progress on this topic ? Will it be a public process, happening
online? I'm looking forward to bring my 2 cents, if possible :)</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Nico<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 2/07/18 à 09:07, André Heughebaert a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAB4_MXcmUifxiGSVALEnxSOf2EBmeEUTHojiz4RnaZn4CfqEgA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">Thanks Tim,
<div>Happy to see that you are designing a more expressive model
for data exchange and indexing.</div>
<div>Species interactions is a good example to start with, but I
would rather see a more open model allowing relations between
all possible entities we are dealing with: specimens, species,
locations, events, people, materials, multimedia, projects...<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I've recently experimented the <a
href="https://frictionlessdata.io/" moz-do-not-send="true">Frictionless
Data</a> that offers a truly entity relationship model for
data publication.</div>
<div>We have to go beyond the DwC star schema and present a well
defined DarwinCore schema that supports all possible
interactions (relations).</div>
<div>I do hope nodes experience will be taken into account and
GBIF + TDWG community will come with data model everyone can
accept and use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm looking forward to participate to this new data
exchange model</div>
<div>Best regards, <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">--</div>
<div dir="ltr">Ir Andre Heughebaert</div>
<div dir="ltr">GBIF Node Manager at <a
href="http://www.biodiversity.be"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Belgian
Biodiversity Platform</a><br>
+32(0)2238 3796<br>
Av. Louise 231 Louizalaan<br>
B-1050 Brussels <a
href="http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7839-5300"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ORCID
0000-0002-7839-5300</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 15:52, Tim Robertson <<a
href="mailto:trobertson@gbif.org" moz-do-not-send="true">trobertson@gbif.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-GB">
<div class="m_6657462093363821298WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Thanks for raising this Rui</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>This is just a note to say that
we are beginning to discuss starting the design of a
more expressive model for data exchange, and indexing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I am afraid that is not a short
term task though, but it will of course cover
interactions (species related and evidence of
interactions). As things progress, your input would be
very welcome, both on this topic and the broader
model.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Tim</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">IPT <<a
href="mailto:ipt-bounces@lists.gbif.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ipt-bounces@lists.gbif.org</a>>
on behalf of Rui Figueira <<a
href="mailto:ruifigueira@isa.ulisboa.pt"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ruifigueira@isa.ulisboa.pt</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 28 June 2018 at 15.45<br>
<b>To: </b>Markus Döring <<a
href="mailto:mdoering@gbif.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mdoering@gbif.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:ipt@lists.gbif.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ipt@lists.gbif.org</a>"
<<a href="mailto:ipt@lists.gbif.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ipt@lists.gbif.org</a>>,
helpdesk <<a href="mailto:helpdesk@gbif.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">helpdesk@gbif.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [IPT] update of Darwin Core
Resource Relationship extension</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p>Hi Markus,</p>
<p>Thank you for your quick reply.</p>
<p>I understand the need to make the updated extension
"correct", accordingly to the "class".</p>
<p>However, the lack of implementation on GBIF in
ingesting related resources is a point of concern.</p>
<p>It brings to my memory the XVII Congress of the
European Mycological Association (EMA), in 2015, in
Madeira. In that congress, Dmitry Schigel and myself, we
were invited to organise a symposium on Biodiversity
Informatics and Fungal Data, in the end of the first
day. But, in the opening plenary session of the the
conference, the President of EMA, David Minter, stated
with emphasis that GBIF deliberately lacked support to
all mycological researcher community. His main argument
was that GBIF does not support interactions between
species, which is critical data for many fungi species.
Unfortunately, I think we have to agree with him!</p>
<p>Using associatedTaxa is a limited solution if we want
to document the occurrence of the interaction. And using
the extension will create problems when documenting
interactions between different biological groups, namely
in the metadata description.</p>
<p>I came across this problem precisely because I am
preparing and update of a dataset of fungi
<a
href="https://www.gbif.org/dataset/651c0bec-bd78-4300-bbb0-5ed172fc82af"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.gbif.org/dataset/651c0bec-bd78-4300-bbb0-5ed172fc82af</a>,
where all fungi are associated with a plant host. The
use of the extension would allow us to define, for
example, the establishment means of the host. But, if
GBIF is not ingesting the resource relationship, we are
only left with the option of using associatedTaxa and
occurrenceRemarks to document interactions, which is not
my preferred option.</p>
<p>Best regards,</p>
<p>Rui</p>
<pre>------------------</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Rui Figueira</pre>
<pre>Coordenador do Nó Português do GBIF</pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:ruifigueira@isa.ulisboa.pt" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ruifigueira@isa.ulisboa.pt</a></pre>
<pre>Instituto Superior de Agronomia</pre>
<pre>Herbário</pre>
<pre>Tapada da Ajuda, 1349-017 Lisboa, Portugal</pre>
<pre>Tel. +351 213653165 | Fax. +351 213653195</pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.gbif.pt" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.gbif.pt</a></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.isa.ulisboa.pt" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.isa.ulisboa.pt</a></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 06/28/2018 11:38 AM, Markus
Döring wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Rui, </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">the scientificName term was
dropped because it is not part of the regular DwC
relation "class":</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/index.htm#relindex"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/index.htm#relindex</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The resource relation can relate
any kind of things and GBIF needs to lookup the ids
to find the scientificName of the related resource
in your case. Unfortunately this is not implemented
right now, so by upgrading to the latest "correct"
version of the extension you will lose the related
scientific name on the GBIF occurrence page. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">When I look at your example the
data is a little unexpected though.</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The relatedResourceID is given
as 701c94f1-16eb-4c1e-8449-f3b046100187:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://api.gbif.org/v1/occurrence/1585354292/verbatim"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://api.gbif.org/v1/occurrence/1585354292/verbatim</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This should be the occurrenceID
of the occurrence record for the plant it feeds on (<span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",sans-serif;background:white">Pistacia
terebinthus)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I lookup this record in your
dataset it is missing:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/search?dataset_key=85a3c886-3312-45c9-b040-4d7634653246&occurrence_id=701c94f1-16eb-4c1e-8449-f3b046100187&advanced=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/search?dataset_key=85a3c886-3312-45c9-b040-4d7634653246&occurrence_id=701c94f1-16eb-4c1e-8449-f3b046100187&advanced=1</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If I look at the taxonomic
overview of your dataset it is all Arthropoda, so
the related food plants all seem to be excluded?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/taxonomy?dataset_key=85a3c886-3312-45c9-b040-4d7634653246&advanced=1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/taxonomy?dataset_key=85a3c886-3312-45c9-b040-4d7634653246&advanced=1</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you only want to annotate an
occurrence record with the plant it feeds on you
should not be using the relations extension but
instead look into dwc:associatedTaxa: <a
href="http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/index.htm#associatedTaxa"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/index.htm#associatedTaxa</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">With regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Markus</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 28. Jun 2018, at 12:14,
Rui Figueira <<a
href="mailto:ruifigueira@isa.ulisboa.pt"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ruifigueira@isa.ulisboa.pt</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi IPT list members,<br>
<br>
Could anyone help me to understand what are
the implications of doing an update of the
Darwin Core Resource Relationship extension,
that our IPT installation is asking to
update?<br>
<br>
I am particularly concerned with the dataset
<a
href="http://ipt.gbif.pt/ipt/resource?r=edp_tua_arthropoda_eia"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
http://ipt.gbif.pt/ipt/resource?r=edp_tua_arthropoda_eia</a>, that is
using this extension. The table
resourcerelationship.txt in the dataset uses
the term scientificName to identify the name
of the tree where larva of butterflies feed
on. This is reflected in the occurrence data
at <a href="http://gbif.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gbif.org</a>,
for example, in this record:
<a
href="https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/1585354292"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/1585354292</a>.<br>
<br>
I noticed that the update of the extension
dropped the term scientificName. So, could
anyone guide me on the changes that I need
to do in the dataset, in order to be able to
update the extension and have the same or
equivalent information about the
relationship in the record at <a
href="https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/1585354292?"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/1585354292?</a><br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Rui<br>
<br>
-- <br>
------------------<br>
<br>
Rui Figueira<br>
Coordenador do Nó Português do GBIF<br>
<a href="mailto:ruifigueira@isa.ulisboa.pt"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ruifigueira@isa.ulisboa.pt</a><br>
Instituto Superior de Agronomia<br>
Herbário<br>
Tapada da Ajuda, 1349-017 Lisboa, Portugal<br>
Tel. +351 213653165 | Fax. +351 213653195<br>
<a href="http://www.gbif.pt" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.gbif.pt</a><br>
<a href="http://www.isa.ulisboa.pt"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.isa.ulisboa.pt</a><br>
<br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.gbif.org/mailman/listinfo/ipt</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.gbif.org/mailman/listinfo/ipt</a><br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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